Science Saturday Open Thread: Cloud Nine

 137 replies

BRAG does his best to make you smarter, despite the comments section. Hopefully, anyway.

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Everyone knows about clouds, right? Whether wispy cirrus, puffy cumulus cottonballs, or the towering, threatening cumulonimbus anvils, they are a constant of life. Sometimes you ignore them, sometimes you admire their beauty, and sometimes you keep a close eye on them, especially in Tornado Alley. But how often do you think about these light-as-a-feather things floating in the sky?

Embed from Getty Images

If you’re like most people, not very often. I do, however, because I’m BRAG and I think about the things I notice. So how about I lead off with this fact: Clouds aren’t actually light. Take one and compress it down until only the water remains, and those things are massively heavy. How heavy? Again, I’m BRAG, so I’m going to provide an example to illustrate. There’s some math coming up, but don’t run away just yet. It will be in metric, which will make it fairly simple. Go ahead and feel free to skip down to the result if you prefer, but I’m going to show my work so that you can see I’m not just making stuff up when you see the total.

First and foremost, I’ll lay out the premise: Can we all agree that a single rain cloud, perhaps one of many but let’s keep it simple, can put down one centimeter of rain along a path 500 meters wide and 2 kilometers long? Seems conservative to me, and I hope you agree that’s reasonable, because that gives us a total area of one square kilometer. That’s much less than a square mile, so it’s not that big, is it? Now for some easy math:

1km^2 = 1,000,000m^2, because 1,000 * 1,000 = 1,000,000

That’s an awful lot of square meters, isn’t it? But so far the math’s simple, so let’s keep going.

1m^2 = 10,000 cm^2, because 100 * 100 = 10,000

Still simple, right?

Therefore by multiplying those totals together, we have:

1km^2 = 10,000,000,000cm^2

Ten billion square centimeters is an awful lot of those little critters, so I think you can see why I’m keeping this simple by using metric. Now on to the next step, but we’ll be back to this sum, as sure as Terminators.

I chose 1cm of rain, less than half an inch, because multiplying that by the previous total gets us to cubic centimeters. That’s good for some more simplicity, because one cubic centimeter of water equals one gram. And since ten billion grams is hard to grasp, let’s convert that to kilograms.

10,000,000,000g / 1,000 = 10,000,000kg

Still simple enough, but awkwardly large, so let’s convert it to metric tons, which are 1,000kg each:

10,000,000kg / 1000 = 10,000 metric tons

That’s better, but since we Americans don’t think in metric very well, let’s convert that to US tons, the conversion factor being 1 = 2.205.

So that’s 22,050 tons of water. While clouds “float” because their density is extremely low, clouds measured by water weight are very heavy indeed. Also, don’t forget that after such a modest rainfall there’s still going to be a big cloud up there, even if the rain stops falling from it. Don’t forget that that’s just an ordinary rain cloud, either. Imagine an isolated thunderhead, which is a whole lot bigger. I know you’ve seen them, a big cumulonimbus anvil cloud hanging in the sky, so that shouldn’t be hard to do. And if we’re talking a full-on T-storm…

Embed from Getty Images

So the next time you are advised by a meteorologist to seek shelter due to an oncoming thunderstorm, take the warning seriously, because those gigantic bastards pack a lot of potential energy from the weight of the water alone. That doesn’t count wind and lightning, but a few hundred thousand tons of water above your head might make you think.

If I do this again, perhaps I’ll take a look at the wind involved in one of those bad boys. Until then, stay safe, because without you, Arrowhead might lack a few screaming maniacs this season. Besides, without y’all, Anthony might put me to work making up for the lost clicks – and without upping my BHQV ration. Y’all aren’t dying to see that happen, are you?


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BigBill
BigBill
06/29/2019 6:18 pm

As a person that has a degree in chemistry, I think it’s important to note that the density of pure water depends on its temperature. The importance of the difference between 1 g/cm3 and 0.9971 g/cm3 in regard to the volume of a cloud is large. Not trying to be an ass, just pointing out the effect of rounding. Thank you for the write-up.

Leaf
Reply to  BigBill
06/29/2019 8:26 pm

Good point. When you have 10,000,000 cm^3, those rounded numbers add up.

BigRed
BigRed
06/29/2019 5:44 pm

Great write up. Cool stuff!

Chief-Blinders-On
Chief-Blinders-On
06/29/2019 4:40 pm

The wife loves thunderstorms especially with lots of lightning, she’ll stand out there in the rain staring up at the sky while getting drenched behind logic forever. Clouds are fascinating, fun to stare at on a blue sky, white fluffy cloudy day. And like you said, they can be incredibly formidable because of the amount of water they contain. A true force (like Mahomes)!

Love flying through clouds when I travel on planes and see their movement through the tiny windows. It’s awesome…

Skydiving is the closest I’ve been to clouds, it’s amazing. I’d recommend it to anyone. Great subject Brag!

pompano
06/29/2019 4:34 pm

Maybe if we call it “Spiritual Saturday” it will become a discussion on science?

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  pompano
06/29/2019 4:47 pm

what fun would that be?

Nasrani
Nasrani
06/29/2019 4:19 pm

Interesting stuff this week, BRaG.

I’m a bit of a weather junkie myself (as you mentioned, growing up in the Midwest almost makes one a weather junkie, since it’s necessary for survival and all that).

I think one thing we all need to take into account with these weights is the sheer immensity of clouds themselves, particularly thunderheads. I’m pretty sure, living in northeastern Kansas, I could see from my backyard the storm that produced the Joplin tornado. I’m not sure what the straight-line distance is from northeastern Kansas to Joplin, MO, but that storm was huge. The height of these storms, and the fact that they can continually energize themselves by feeding off the available moisture, is amazing.

At another time we should go into meteorological phenomena by themselves, and not just here on earth: Titan (largest of the moons of Saturn) has a cycle similar to our hydrological cycle, but with methane. Interesting stuff.

Leaf
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 8:23 pm

I think only Mercury is the only planet without weather. It’s atmosphere is too thin to support any type of weather. Even Mars has that sandstorm that took out the rover.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 10:13 pm

And we’re embarking on a new mission. Sending a newly designed research vehicle to Titan. (Saturn’s largest moon).
With the data gathered by 2 deep space probes that explored all the way through our solar system… it seems that moon is the most likely place (based on atmospheric data) to find any form of life (microbial or otherwise) in our solar system.

In 2026 the mission will be launched, and will include landing on Titan with a vehicle that has 8 rotating blades (think high end and very large drone) that will allow it to cover more distances than the rover ever could while exploring Mars.

Titan has an atmosphere and weather cycles (it rains and the rain evaporates back into the clouds etc) … It has lakes as large as the great lakes. Only, the rain and the lakes are not water. They are liquid methane. The temperature on Titan sits around -292 F (-180 C). So methane is a liquid, not a gas.

Which brings up the question: Would you want to live in a place covered in liquid farts, where it rains fart droplets?

Leaf
06/29/2019 2:34 pm

See this is why the metric system is far superior. Easy conversions and calculations. Because you used only 1cm of rain along that rain cloud, that’s 10,000,000,000 cm^3 in volume and 1 cm^3 = 1 ml. So the volume the of rain that weighs 10,000 metric tons is 10,000,000 L.

Leaf
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 4:50 pm

I get that. Was just adding on to your work by showing that finding the volume of your rain “fall” is also an easy calculation. With hardly any effort, we now know the area, the volume, and the weight.

KenW
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 6:21 pm

In civil engineering we take amount of rainfall in a prescribed period of time and then how long it takes to travel from the highest point (time/concentration) to a certain point in a gutter and using the cross slope of the street and grade of the street can calculate where to place storm inlets so the water doesn’t crest the centerline of the street.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
06/29/2019 1:29 pm

Can we get a Science Saturday thread on a subject that relates, at least moderately, to football. I’m not complaining. I like the Saturday threads as is, but it’s just a thought.

Spit-balling here:

How rotational dynamics of a flying object relate to distance and/or accuracy (a spinning bullet or a football thrown with a true spiral). What happens to a kick/throw given an equal amount of force and loft, if spin is applied?

Calculations of impact forces, based on velocity and mass…and how that directly relates to tackling, the best way to block for a lineman (velocity vs pure mass), the difference in force dynamics that led to rule changes for kick offs, etc… How hard do they actually hit?

The variations of friction levels and how they impact the game (both in ball handling and footing) based on field conditions (light rain, heavy rain, snow) and who gains/loses advantages based on those factors?

Wind speed and direction vectors and how they apply to kicks/throws at various distances?

Again, I’m not bitching. The Science Saturday threads tend to be my favorite as they are right now, but they don’t often tie back to football.
Plus, I kinda wanna see the reaction to physics and/or calculus calculations as they play out in the comments, cause I’m mildly sadistic.

pompano
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 2:39 pm

I used to be good at applied geometry and physics, we called it 8 Ball.
Call shot, no slop.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 3:33 pm

Yes, when I scratch them, they are usually in hand.

pompano
06/29/2019 1:22 pm
Mahomesisgreat
Mahomesisgreat
06/29/2019 12:52 pm

Cool.

CHIEFSandSABRES
CHIEFSandSABRES
06/29/2019 12:52 pm

Great post BRAG!

Tarkus
06/29/2019 12:41 pm

Is it true that when it rains, it pours?

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
06/29/2019 11:37 am

What does the Bible say about Clouds?

And just think, you haven’t even added in the weight of all the dead, the throne of god, or the army of heaven and their horses and linen’s and swords! Oh, wait… that’s all nonsense. I almost forgot.

Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done

Revelation 19:11-21
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron

Tony Sommer
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 11:43 am

comment image

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Tony Sommer
06/29/2019 11:50 am

Stealing the thunder…….. in keeping with the cloud theme. =)

pompano
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 1:07 pm

Elijah: My ubers’ here.
Elias: Mine too.
Elijah: Yours is on fire.
Elias: Yours isn’t?

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 12:17 pm

What does the Bible say about jerk-off like you?

Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

2 Chronicles 15:12-13
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

Exodus 22:19 ESV /
“Whoever lies with an animal shall be put to death.

Team Player
Team Player
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 12:30 pm

You’re still here Zulu? Your first amendment rights are just as strong as mine. I’ll show myself out again.

PS great write-up BRAG!! Good thing clouds don’t fall all at once

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 1:05 pm

nah, it’s a copy/paste.
He’s called me that multiple weeks on the Science Saturday thread.
I guess I’m supposed to be offended by it. /shrug.

Insults that contain no basis in reality are to be ignored, by and large.

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 1:38 pm

You’re right, I call you jerk off so much (because you deserve it, in other words– a basis in reality) that it’s just copy and paste

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 1:49 pm

Why should we believe that an infallible god exists?
Because it says so in the bible.

Why should we believe that the bible is true, or accurate?
Because it was written/inspired by an infallible god.

If you think I deserve to be called names for pointing out your completely unsupported circular logic that you have yet to even attempt to support, then call me names. It doesn’t make your bald, unsupported assertions any more true.

All you have to do is present some sort of testable, repeatable evidence for your bald assertions. Do that, and you will convert the world. Go right back to First Peter 3:15. Be prepared to show your reason for faith

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 1:52 pm

Are you making fun of my hair line. Just because I’m bald should not be held against me
Jerk off

pompano
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 2:02 pm

It’s definitely low on the list of things 🙂

Chickennpickles
Chickennpickles
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 3:44 pm

There’s some preaching I can get behind! I’d love to back you up over here, but I’ve been having a similar (though considerably longer) conversation over in the YouTube comments section & my patience is worn to the quick right now.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Nasrani
06/29/2019 8:50 pm

William Lane Craig is a charlatan apologist.

I won’t take the time to refute his flawed logic and evidence here, as it has been done already countless times in countless debates by dozens of people already, but I will summarize. Suffice it to say, I don’t find his premises to be sound, nor his conclusions to be true.

The teleological argument can only be used to show that something must have caused the local presentation of the universe.

Craig presents this, and then just flat out asserts without evidence that the thing that caused the local presentation of the universe must be the christian god.

He makes a leap from “has a cause” to “the christian god IS the cause” with no support, no evidence, and no logical argument. It’s just a flat assertion.

There is no reason that a multi-verse, or a super black hole in another universe… could not be the cause.
There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that the cause has to be an agent, or a thinking agent, or a creator.
There is no reason that the cause has to be christian, or care about anything or anyone, or lord over the universe once it has been caused. These things are all just simply asserted without support by WLC.

pompano
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 1:50 pm

Let (insert the preferred pronoun) without sin among us cast the first stone

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  pompano
06/29/2019 2:03 pm

What’s the accepted pronoun now for a cis-male hetero poly-amorous individual?

Is it still “pig” or did it officially change to “fuck-boy” ?

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 2:06 pm

BOOOOOOM!!! . . . Got him

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 2:10 pm

You fuckin punk. Take your high IQ and your smug giant ego and shove them up your ass
Where I’m sure they will fit

pompano
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 2:24 pm

Clever, you are.

pompano
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 2:32 pm

They, I think.
I tend to stick with proper nouns to avoid confusion.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 2:39 pm

Zulu, you’re not accomplishing anything except getting yourself upset. Come on man, you know the last days will be full of mockers and lovers of self. All you’re doing is casting your pearls before swine, nothing else. Let it go man.

pompano
Reply to  probablyamistake
06/29/2019 2:49 pm

If these are his pearls I wonder what his conch beads look like.

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  pompano
06/29/2019 3:06 pm

pomp . . I know I hear your mom callin’

pompano
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 4:14 pm

Is that meant to elicit a particular response, or will any response do?

zulu trader
zulu trader
Reply to  pompano
06/29/2019 5:02 pm

Yes; None

pompano
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 5:07 pm

.

KCChef
KCChef
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 1:50 pm

comment image

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  zulu trader
06/29/2019 2:18 pm

I’m glad to be called an enemy of the biblical god.
He’s a sadist, a masochist, a murderer, a liar, a sexist, a genocidal psychopath that is (according to his own book) in favor of slavery, blood sacrifices (up to and including his own son), and denouncing of ones own family and loved ones. The god of the bible is a terrible, immoral, and cruel being who’s own ego is so HUGE that he demands worship from every living thing at all times. He convicts people of thought crimes. He created man flawed, and demanded that they make themselves pure…rather than own up to the fact that his creation was flawed because HE is not perfect.

He demanded absolute unquestioning reverence without providing the knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil). And when the man strove to understand the rulings of god (eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) man could not have known that was an evil act, because that knowledge was not imparted until AFTER he ate of the tree.

All of mankind carries the sin of the ‘first man’, when (in fact) it wasn’t a sin for the first man, because he didn’t have the knowledge until after he had already eaten of the fruit. But that sin…the sin of the father is passed down to every generation throughout all time, because the biblical god punishes every person for all time for the sin of the first man, who didn’t know it was a sin until after he did it, because god didn’t bother to provide the knowledge before hand.

The biblical god is a first class dick. Even if you could PROVE that god existed…. I wouldn’t worship it. I would believe, based on evidence. But I would denounce, based on deeds.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 3:53 pm

Just a little out of context. Trying to explain a spiritual (or supernatural) message to people that can only see or hear with physical eyes or ears is a waste of time.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  probablyamistake
06/29/2019 3:56 pm

And trying to assert that there is a such thing as “spiritrual” or “super-natural” without any evidence of it is a waste my time.

Hell, I’ve never met a group of people that can even agree on the definition of “spiritual, or spiritual realm.”

Apparently, it means, “whatever vague wishy-washy thing that will support my current comment or discussion, that you cannot see, hear, touch, or support””

probablyamistake
probablyamistake
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:13 pm

I’ve chosen to believe the Bible (also known as Faith), you’ve chosen to reject it. That’s your decision, which I’m not going to condemn (Someone else will do that). You want to ridicule Believers, personally I couldn’t care less. I know Who I believe in, and someone like you is absolutely no threat to my Faith whatsoever. The Son will not lose one that the Father has given Him. Have a good weekend.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  probablyamistake
06/29/2019 4:26 pm

At no point in time have I ridiculed you, or anyone else. I have never called names, nor suggested that you are not free to believe whatever it is you wish to believe. I believe all things based on evidence. You believe all things based on evidence, except for this one thing based on ‘faith’ , which to me means ‘belief without evidence.’ I have certainly discussed/ridiculed specific ideas. If you define god as a certain thing, and there is evidence that shows that that certain thing is impossible, AND there is zero evidence to support that certain thing….then yes, I will reject that certain thing. That doesn’t mean I reject all notions of a god, just the ones that zero support and/or sufficient evidence to the contrary. For instance, there is zero evidence for a society of 600,000 Israelite males (1,000,000 total according to the biblical cannon) living in Egypt as slaves. In fact, population studies for the time period suggested would show that if there were 1,000,000 Hebrew slaves, they would have outnumbered the Egyptians 3:1. If they outnumbered the Egyptians 3:1, they would not have been slaves (supporting that they were not slaves in Eqypt), and there is zero archaeological and zero genetic evidence for them even being there in the first place. Therefore, zero evidence for, and evidence against this story being true. That’s not a personal attack on you or anyone else. Further, if they wandered the desert for 40 years and the average life span at the time was about 35-45 years……the ones that started the trip out of Egypt would have died on the journey. Zulu, and you, have chosen to take it as a personal attack, when someone points out flaws in your beliefs. It’s not a personal attack. At no time have I said… You’re an idiot if you believe XXX. Nor have I said …anyone that accepts this is a fuck face….etc. (Although Zulu seems to like to make direct personal attacks, I have not…and will not) If, however, you ‘explain’ something by saying ‘the spiritual realm’ …. you have… Read more »

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:43 pm

If they outnumbered the Eqyptians 3:1, they would not have been slaves

Well, technically not true. If they didn’t know they outnumbered the Egyptians, and or were psychologically repressed to the point of being submissive, it’s still possible.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 4:55 pm

Okay, I concede that.
If they outnumbered the Egyptians 3:1 it’s highly unlikely they would have been slaves.
But there’s still zero evidence they were even there in the first place.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 8:19 pm

Yes, I’ve read those as well. But they were pro-Israelite, not Hebrews, and their numbers were no where near a million (were talking in the small thousands…not even close). The archaeological evidence for their existence puts them in the wrong place, at the wrong time to corroborate the biblical story.

It might explain one possible way that the legend of the exodus could have come to pass through oral tradition, but notice that the time frame, numbers, non-existent slaves, moses leading them out… none of that is supported.

Which just goes back to what I said far below. My statement is that the Exodus, as described in the bible, didn’t happen. Even if your comment were all 100% true, and backed by evidence……. it would only support the idea that the biblical account (time frame, number of people, fact that the people were Hebrew slaves, Moses existing or leading anyone anywhere etc..) is not true.

It COULD BE the grain of truth at the bottom of the pot of stone soup. And through oral telling, the story has changed so much as to have a god, a prophet, and miracles of splitting the water, a 40 year time frames, etc…all added to it. It also doesn’t take place in the same locations, or at the same times. Then again it COULD JUST BE a coincidental story that has nothing to do with the biblical fable.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 11:23 pm

On that last set of points I agree completely. The story may have had a nugget of truth at the core, and by studying that and working outward we can try to piece together what the actual truth is. Finding some bit of truth within the fable has great value. But, as I have said in previous Saturday threads, the majority of the stories in the bible (old and new testament) were myths and fables that had been kicked around verbally for 50-2000 years, across multiple kingdoms/lands, passed through and interpreted and changed by multiple civilizations and religions. Almost none of them originated with Judaism or Christianity. Almost all of them have been altered, had things changed (like names and places for instance) to better suit the people that were telling/hearing the story at the time..multiple times across multiple peoples and multiple ruling classes and religions. Even after 50-2000 years of verbal telling, they then had to endure another 325 years of “copying” from single sheets and letters by a largely illiterate populace as they were reproduced to pass from place to place among the ‘followers’ Even the stories of Jesus himself were tossed around verbally for 50 odd years after his death (in the earliest known writings) before being written down, and some parts/books of the bible don’t appear as writing until 300+ years after the death of Jesus. And after all that… it was another 25-50 year process for the council of nicaea to gather all the letters and writings and study them and vote on which ones to include in a cannon, and which ones to toss out. The council didn’t even form until around 325 AD, and their process took almost 50 years before the cannon was finalized. So after 50-2000 years of verbal stories being passed around from generation to generation, at a time when mankind only lived about 45 years, the very first writings don’t appear until 50 years after the death of Jesus (meaning that no one that actually knew him (disciples etc)) made the writings, because they were all dead and gone… Read more »

probablyamistake
probablyamistake
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 5:22 pm

This is true, but he also commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and we know what happened there. It was definitely a test of faith that Saul failed. I doubt if God would have allowed Saul to follow through on that command, He would have probably intervened like with Abraham. He’s not big on hurting children.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  probablyamistake
06/29/2019 5:34 pm

You’re right,
Most of the times in the bible when god calls for the Jews/Hebrews to commit genocide on an entire race/town/city of people… He only advocates killing all the male children.

Usually, he specifically instructs the Hebrews/Jews to “keep all the virgin girls for yourselves” rather than kill them. Although, he still wants the goats, sheep, and cattle to be slaughtered.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 6:09 pm

Numbers 31:15-18
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/30/2019 10:47 am

Ya know what, you are right. Haven’t read the Old Testament for years, forgot that part. The Old Testament is a hard read because of stories like this. Believers can’t explain everything that happens in the Bible, some things make no sense. That’s where faith comes in, believing God is a just and righteous judge. Nonbelievers can use these instances to attack our faith, and to be honest people like you do have valid arguments. I refuse to reject Christ because of things I can’t explain or don’t understand.

KenW
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 6:14 pm

God never answered my prayers for the help I so desperately needed. Since God doesn’t care about me, I see no reason to care about Him, if He exists. What if…God isn’t what you or I were taught he was as we grew up, isn’t what we read in bibles and is what is taught in churches.? What if I said we were all a part of God and we are here just to experience. Here let God explain it to you… Of course, there is no way for you to not be who and what you are—you simply are that (pure, creative spirit), have been always, and always will be. So, you did the next best thing. You caused yourself to forget Who You Really Are. Upon entering the physical universe, you relinquished your remembrance of yourself. This allows you to choose to be Who You Are, rather than simply wake up in the castle, so to speak. It is in the act of choosing to be, rather than simply being told that you are, a part of God that you experience yourself as being at total choice, which is what, by definition, God is. Yet how can you have a choice about something over which there is no choice? You cannot not be My offspring no matter how hard you try—but you can forget. You are, have always been, and will always be, a divine part of the divine whole, a member of the body. That is why the act of rejoining the whole, of returning to God, is called remembrance. You actually choose to remember Who You Really Are, or to join together with the various parts of you to experience the all of you—which is to say, the All of Me. Your job on Earth, therefore, is not to learn (because you already know), but to re-member Who You Are. And to re-member who everyone else is. That is why a big part of your job is to remind others (that is, to re-mind them), so that they can re-member also. All the wonderful spiritual teachers… Read more »

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  KenW
06/29/2019 6:25 pm

I’ll certainly read it, because I find this kind of stuff fascinating.

At first glance, I don’t see any reason to reason to believe it’s true, but All I’ve read are a couple or paragraphs…so that’s to be expected.

Thanks for the link.

KenW
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 6:31 pm

my pleasure…I grew up with an Atheist father and a bible thumping Baptist mother so i’ve seen and experienced both sides of the biblical debate and found this book and the ones that he wrote after to be more fitting and acceptable than anything else to this point in my life. Even when I didn’t believe in a higher power I never could accept the theory of evolution which like religion isn’t proven and requires a belief system to accept.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  KenW
06/29/2019 7:44 pm

Mom’s Catholic, Dad’s non practicing but a ‘believer’ whatever that means, Gma on moms side is Buddhist, Gpa on moms side is non-denominational Christian, Gma on Dad’s side is Protestant, Gpa on dad’s side is Baptist, I have an aunt&uncle that’s born again Christian, and a crazy family with 14 kids (by my view) young earth creationist, biblical literalist, fundamentalists’ that is another uncle&aunt on the other side.

I’ve studied them all, and then some more beyond that. They can’t all be right, and I wanted to know who was. I came to the conclusion that it’s most likely that they are all wrong.

I’m afraid I can’t go with you on your evolution statement. It is, in fact, proven with mountains of evidence from at least a dozen different disciplines of science all corroborating each other. And it doesn’t require any non-evidence based belief system.

KenW
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/30/2019 7:59 pm

Charles Darwin admitted that fossils of the transitional links between species would have to be found in order to prove his “Theory of Evolution.” Well, these transitional links have never been found. We only find individual species.

https://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/
The Scientific Case Against Evolution by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

Neither has any proof and neither has ever been proven. Belief in either is based on faith and nothing more. I’m not trying to get you to believe in a god or anything just pointing out that no matter which side you are on you have no proof to back it up. I know that it is difficult to find articles that aren’t religious biased but that is because most scientists even the most credible ones do not speak against evolution including those that go to church and portray they believe in a god.

What if neither is correct and we are of an alien race from somewhere far far away…

Things that make you go Hmmm…. Arsenio Hall..

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  KenW
07/01/2019 8:50 pm

Look at your source.
The institute of Creation Research is a front for the same organization that took “creation” and changed what it was called to “Intelligent Design” to try to smuggle it into the schools on the premise of “teaching the controversy.”

When, in fact, there is no controversy. A full 98% of the scientific community has come to a consensus that evolution by natural selection is the most accurate model that describes life on this planet.

As for “transitional links” … not only have there been links presented, but lots of them.
If we start with Ape and head to Man…. and we give a link (Australopithecus, for example), the institute of creation just points to either side of that link and says “Now you have 2 missing links instead of 1” … and each time we fill in another link, they just claim we are creating more missing links. They are either dishonest, ignorant, or both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_link_(human_evolution)

A simple wikipedia search can show you the transitional links in human evolution. That took me .5 seconds to find. And an actual exhaustive search of scientific articles that have been published in real pier reviewed journals will net you hundreds of thousand of pages of information on the subject.

The problem is… The Creation Institute is NOT a scientific body. They have NOT had anything of note published in ANY pier reviewed journals (except for the journals that they set up themselves, and only send to religious community places to do the reviewing). The Creation Institute has an agenda.

Science does not have an agenda. They attempt, at every turn, to falsify the hypothesis’. They strive to prove each other wrong. This is exactly the opposite of ‘christian science”, who start with a belief and search out only for those things that they can use to support that belief; even when those things are junk science…or not science at all. Nothing they report has been pier reviewed, and it has no value what-so-ever in the search for truth.

Science is not based on faith. Not even a little bit.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  KenW
07/03/2019 10:12 pm

By the way. Henry H Morris Ph.D. — died in 2006
His writings that you are quoting are from years before that. (1961)

And he worked for the Institute of Creation Research for the majority of his career. His agenda is clear. He’s not an unbiased scientist.

Oh, and his Ph.D. — is in Hydrolics Engineering.

He’s not a biologist, geneticist, archaeologist, or an anthropologist.
His training in any related scientific field that would make him someone to listen to about evolutionary theory is exactly bubkis, zero, nada.

This is very common among Creation Institute, anti-science, bible fundamentalist writers. They often have no Ph.D., a PH.D. in a completely unrelated field, or a Ph.D. from a diploma mill christian college that no one has ever heard of (because it’s some guy’s home mailing address down on 5th street, and you can get the Ph.D. just by filling out some forms and sending in a check)

You’ve got to check your sources before you believe what you read.

This guy is one of the founders of the Institute of Creation Research. Further, he also founded the Christian Heritage College (A diploma mill of a school with poor to zero acreditation). Which has gone on to “Sell Ph.D. credentials” to lots of current and past IoCR writers)

The school is such a joke…. When Henry died ..His position as president and dean of the college was handed down to his son.
What real university have you ever heard of where the president and dean of the school job gets passed on from father to son, instead of interviewing and hiring the best person for a position of educational director? — I’ll tell you what kind…. a fake college aka diploma mill.

KenW
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/30/2019 8:02 pm

“, but hit me with that again later on”

No problem…that is if I remember…it’s not something I discuss much or often and usually keep my beliefs to myself, mainly because I may change my beliefs based on new evidence…

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 2:43 pm

I would believe, abased on evidence. But I would denounce, based on deeds.

That’s assuming everything in the Bible about him is 100% correct.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 2:45 pm

Which you must assume, IF you are also assuming that the bible was inspired/written by a perfect being.

I will sit over here on the sidelines, pointing out flawed logic, until some religion/person can provide any testable evidence for the existence of their preferred supreme being.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 2:52 pm

Not really? And I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. But God’s existence does not require everything about him to be accurate. It’s possible people attributed deeds to him that he did not do. It’s possible that the book was written by men, who are not perfect. It’s possible that he’s or creator, but he himself is not perfect. I mean there are lots of possibilities on how he can exist, but his Bible depiction isn’t completely accurate.

pompano
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 3:02 pm

Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

The old gods weren’t infallible/omnipotent/omnipresent etc. Yaweh started a new brand, holds a good share of the market.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  pompano
06/29/2019 3:30 pm

Nah, Yahweh didn’t start a new brand. Yahweh just redefined the terms.
A pantheon of gods headed by a single god (Zues, Odin) from Roman and Greek myths was by replaced pantheon of angels/demons headed by a single god.
Hades was replaced by the Devil… or if you want to go back to Zoroastrianism… Beelzebub was replaced by the devil.

The idea of the balance scale of good vs. evil gods (god vs. the devil) is traced back to the Egyptians. As well as an afterlife.

Noah is a character based on several other mythos’ flood stories, dating back to the epic of Gilgamesh.

There’s zero evidence of the Israelite slaves in any large number ever being in Egypt. Nor is there any evidence of any person/character (Moses) even existing..yet alone leading the slaves out of Egypt. In fact, Moses seems to be a mish-mash of 3 or 4 other characters from several different (pre-dating) religions all squashed together with the details changed to make the Jews the ‘good guys’.

Hell, just look at a map of the world as the continents were around the supposed time of Moses. If 600,000 Israelite slaves were led out of Eqypt by Moses at the direction of god, stopping by Mount Sinai to pick up the (15 commandments) 10 commandments – after Moses dropped and broke the original ones given and had to go back and ask for them again- and ended up at Nebo (as the bible says) ….. They wandered the desert for 40 years. FORTY-FUCKIN-YEARS.

If Moses simply followed the coast line from Eqypt to Cannan (the location of Nebo) and walked at a regular pace… the journey would take about 11 days from Eqypt to Cannan. In fact, if each slave led out of Eqypt had left 1 meter of space between himself and the man in front of him, the first of the slaves would have arrived in Cannan before the last of the slaves had even left Eqypt. But with the assistance of god …… they wandered the desert for forty years. What a crock of crap.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 3:55 pm

Well technically they could have ended up Arabian Peninsula. You are assuming they took a straight shot from Egypt to Canaan. That might not have happened.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 3:58 pm

If the biblical locations for Mt Sinai and Mt Nebo are correct…. then 11 days +/- the day and a half they spent getting the commandments

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:14 pm

Mt Nebo is near the Dead Sea. In order to get to it they’d have to leave the coast eventually. so just using your analogy of going along the coast line, they could easily have passed Canaan and gone on into the Arabian Peninsula.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 5:05 pm

And is Mt. Nebo viable to the naked eye from the coast line? Is the Dead Sea a visible (and easily discernible) landmark along the way?

We’re talking about taking an 11 day journey, and extending it to 40 years. FORTY YEARS.
If you’re that lost, just head back to the coast line and get your bearings.

Even if it took a year, as opposed to 11 days I wouldn’t call the story crap. But (and this is the key part) ….Supposedly, with the assistance of god and the guidance of Moses, an 11 day journey became “wandered lost in the desert for 40 years”

What kind of god, or prophet is that?
Would YOU follow some guy in the desert for 40 years just because he claimed to be a prophet?
Would you still believe he was a prophet after 5 years, 10 years, 20 years ….. when all the adults that left Egypt started dying off from old age as they reached their 35-45 year life expectancy?
At what point would you throw your hands up and say “fuck it, I’m heading back towards the coastline to find out where we actually are” ?

For me, it’s a hell of lot less than 40 years later. I’d have abandoned that guy after a month, at most….. on an 11 day journey.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 6:38 pm

You are assuming these people understand basic orientation. I’m sure some would, but not everyone. The Dead Sea is roughly 140 miles away from the Gulf of Aqaba. So no seeing the dead sea, or Mt Nebo from the Red Sea isn’t feasible. They would have at some point had to just blindly break away from the coast. By the time they realized they broke away at the wrong spot, they could have easily have been in the middle of the Arabian Peninsula.

I agree 40 years is way too long to be roaming the dessert. It could simply be dramatic flare by the author. But if the 40 years roaming is true, they would have needed God to have survived that long. There’s no way the dessert has the resources for 200 people to survive let alone 1000000. And if God is powerful enough to support a million people in the dessert, I’m pretty sure he could confuse their sense of direction.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 7:06 pm

The route along the coast line was an established trade route already. It’s not like no one had ever been there before. The Egyptians had active trade with other civilizations. So of the 2 assumptions: 1) The story isn’t true: (Which is supported by the lack of any evidence of the existence of Moses, the lack of any evidence of the existence of 600,000 to 1,000,000 Hebrew slaves ever being in Egypt in the first place. The lack of any writings about any of this from the Egyptians or anyone else outside the Torah. The lack of any genetic evidence of the Hebrews in Egypt. The ‘very similar to the Moses character’ myths by several other religions that pre-date the Torah that seem to have been adapted by the Jews. The admitted fact that the desert probably could not have supported the lives of 1,000,000 slaves wandering for 5 years, yet alone 40 years. Human nature not supporting the idea of blindly following some guy wandering around lost in the desert for that length of time. That the chain of people would have stretched for longer than the total distance of the journey (Assuring that they could NOT lose their way back to the coastline). or 2) A magical super-being with zero evidence for his/her/it’s existence hid all the evidence of anything ever happening, magic-ed food and water for 1,000,000 people over 40 years and purposefully scrambled up their sense of direction for fun as they wandered the desert for 40 years because…..hell, I don’t know why… you figure it out….and sent a prophet to lead these same people out of slavery, only to allow so much time to pass that the majority of them would all be dead before they reached their destination. (Or wait, is god no supposed to have extended their lives to allow them to finish the journey as well?) And after arriving at their destinations, NOT ONE SINGLE WRITING survived where one of a MILLION people told their story of wandering lost in the desert for 40 years, being sustained and kept alive by the… Read more »

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 7:29 pm

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe you don’t support #2. Maybe you just say “I don’t know” …which is a perfectly valid answer.

As an atheist, I tend to lean on the default position. That is to say, when presented with a proposition, I do not believe it until I have sufficient evidence to warrant belief. And in this case, as well as with most the stories in the bible/torah/koran/bhagavad gita etc…. There is not sufficient evidence to warrant belief.
In some cases, I find that there IS sufficient against a proposition to believe the proposition is not true. For me, at least, this is one of those cases.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 8:16 pm

I’m atheist, but I’ll admit I’m not exactly sure were I stand on the spiritual side these days. Personally I believe we don’t have all the answers to things, and there’s plenty of things just unexplainable at this time. So if it doesn’t have tangible evidence, I can look past that if it’s logically sound. Granted that doesn’t mean I necessary believe it, only that I don’t dismiss it as a possibility.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 7:37 pm

Again you are assuming “slaves”, would know the basic trade routes. They wouldn’t have. Also, you are assuming they would have been in a nice straight line and we’re just following the leader. Being slaves they wouldn’t have been that organized. Granted a million people in a giant masses would still take up a shit ton of space, the number of Israelites could have been exaggerated as much as the time in the dessert.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 7:50 pm

That’s why I only used the number 600,000 (the number of work age males) as opposed to the full million the bible claims. And my numbers are based off that 600,000. A million would make it even more insane.

And, it’s a trade route. That means….other people are traveling it to conduct trade…..

Or were all 600,000 people too stubborn to stop and ask someone?

Again, you are arguing minutia to try and poke holes in anything (in my eyes) in (what I assume is) some sort of attempt to grasp onto a belief that you at least sub-consciously know most likely isn’t true.

At the end of the day, if your justification for the story being believable forces you to say:

“maybe there weren’t really that many, it was an exaggeration”
“maybe they didn’t wander that long, it was an exaggeration”
“maybe god was purposefully confusing them, to keep them lost”
“maybe no one knew where they were going, and they never ran across anyone else at all along a trade route”
“maybe they walked right past it, and no one was smart enough to walk back to the coast to get their bearings or ask someone”
“maybe god intervened and granted them all super long life spans so that they wouldn’t die before they got there”
“maybe god intervened and magic-ed them up stuff to eat and drink for all the years that they wandered”

Aren’t you admitting that the story in the book isn’t true or believable? If you have to change every detail of the story, or invoke magical intervention multiple times…. wouldn’t you just say… the story, as written, isn’t the truth?

That’s all I’m doing. I’m saying… the story as written isn’t true. How is what you are doing any different?

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 8:11 pm

If they were all male, then yes, yes they were.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 8:25 pm

I’ll admit to being stubborn about stopping to ask for directions. But, even I would have to admit (after a month or so) that I’m probably lost. To hold out for 40 years while people die of old age all around you? Damn, that’s it’s own special kind of stubborn. =)

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 8:32 pm

I get you. And it’s a valid argument. I just see the possibility of them over shooting things and ending up list in the dessert. Yes there could have been other traders along the route. Early on I could see them asking/talking with traders. But if they somehow missed the point where they were supposed to leave the cost, they could have gotten to the point were there were no traders around to help turn them back around.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 8:39 pm

I’m waiting for the day I see god heal an amputee.

If that ever happens, I might just send some money into whatever ‘faith-healer’ manages to pull that off. Until then, I’ll just laugh at them and change the channel.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 8:42 pm

I don’t believe much in faith healers either. Too many have been proven to be con artists so they lack credibility for me to give them the benefit of the doubt. So I’m with you there. Heal something that can’t be faked, and I’ll believe.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 9:06 pm

You understand my point above, I assume….
At some point, you have made so many excuses to justify the truth of the story, you have added so many addendum, and so many caveats and excuses, that you have effectively admitted that you don’t actually believe what the story says either.

You’re just piling on justification after justification or re-interpreting the story in so many ways at once, that you are actually saying that the story, as told, isn’t true….

The only thing you aren’t doing is actually admitting to yourself that you don’t believe the story as written. It’s self delusion, as opposed to actual belief.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 9:36 pm

Well as I said, I’m more arguing for the sake of doing so ?. My whole point during these arguments was only to show that there is a possibility of certain aspects, not to say that these are my beliefs. To be honest, I’m not sure where I stand as far as beliefs now days. I see the logic that people like you place, and you can’t argue that something didn’t add up. But being raised religious, I guess a part of me sees that if there is a God, we might not every truly understand him/her (I mean does an ant understand why I’m putting seven dust in the yard?). Things might never add up with the way our human mind work. So I can’t ever dismiss the possibility of there being some creator of some sort.

Something I argued about, but I actually tend to agree with you on, is if there is a God, I feel more inclined to kick him in the nuts.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 10:03 pm

If it’s the god that is described in the Torah/Old Testament…. fuck that god.
I’m better than that god. I’m more moral than that god.
You are better than that god. You are more moral than that god.
I’ve never met a human being in my lifetime that is not better and more moral than that god.

That god is an immoral, egocentric, murdering asshole. I would not worship that god even if someone could prove it’s existence.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/30/2019 8:48 pm

so walk back to the coast and get directions, instead of wandering in circles

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/30/2019 8:45 pm

why would they have to know the basic trade routes to get back to the coast and get their bearings?
The sun rises in the east, and sets in the west.
If you walked away from the sunrise to turn away from the coast……you walk toword it to get back to the coast.

Not being able to read or write means people had to live their lives by what they learned from observation, as opposed to study. Surely people were aware enough to look and see where the sun was on the horizon.

The coast means…a trade route. And a trade route means…other people that can help.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 8:09 pm

Oh I forgot to address #2. I’m not saying God is supernatural, or does things “magically”. We just don’t know how he does it. If you somehow went back to 11th century England and used a Bic lighter, they’d think it was magic. Granted I know some religious people think he is “magical”, but even in my more spiritual days, I always thought he did things naturally.

But if the story is true, then the Bible already tells us why God did it. He saved his people from bondage, but then they turned on him so he punished the generation that came from Egypt because they were no longer worthy of the promised land. This sounds like a good enough reason for a god to me.

Also, we don’t know that no text survived the journey. Only that none survive today (that we know of). Many ancient texts were lost in the library of Alexandria when it burned. A record of that journey (should it have happened) could have been lost at that time or during one of many disasters.

You appear to be bringing up repeated bits of minutia to argue about, over and over again, and I’m not sure why.

I already mentioned I’m playing devil’s advocate. Just felt like debating with someone today ?

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 8:36 pm

Not for nuthin, but in about 577 AD the Chinese had already invented the predecessor to the match.

And flint was commonly used to start fires all throughout the Iron Age (1200 BC give or take 100 years). We don’t know exactly the first time it was used, but I don’t think people would have thought it was magic.
Flint and steel in a tube with some kind of fuel…. could have been sulfur (like the Chinese had been using for 6 centuries already) or gun powder… (which would tend to go boom) heh.

But yes, I understand your point.
However, if you take away magic, and miracles, and creation…. what makes god a superior being, or an all knowing all powerful one?

God was just a really smart dude that people told stories about?

pompano
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:21 pm

he had to stand out from the crowd someway….

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 3:04 pm

Right, but then you would have to work under the premise that god did not write/inspire the bible. (which we know to be true based on the evidence of the dating of the writings, and the council of nicaea).

And if you take the position that the bible is not the word of god, then the bible cannot be compelling evidence for the existence of a god.

But yes, if you could PROVE the existence of a god through other means (without a collection of books/writings)… all we would know is the existence. We wouldn’t know anything about that god. (Did it create anything, how long has it existed, does it give a shit about the world or anything in it, is it a moral being, does it have a physical form, has it ever had kids, has it ever tried to teach anyone anything, does it require reverence, is there an eternal good place or bad place, is there even such a thing as absolute morality outside of the human understanding of social species morality, etc ??) The existence of a god would, in that case, answer nothing, except that some being exists.

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 3:45 pm

He could have inspired it (or parts of it) and man changed/added things over time. And I agree that the Bible, in and of itself, does not prove God, or that proving his’/her’s existence is its intended purpose (though I’ll agree that there are some that will argue that it is for such a purpose).

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 4:01 pm

And it would be completely untrustworthy, because no one could know which parts were inspired and which parts had been changed. Sure we could trace back every available copy and compare them line by line to see where changes happened, but who’s to say the changes didn’t come from the letters that were gathered to make the books?

Leaf
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:32 pm

That is the inherent problem with the Bible. Knowing which parts are true and are not. Though I suppose if one of the true aspects of the Bible was that God can hear prayer, then I guess you could pray to him and have his spirit guide you. But that wouldn’t provide any tangible proof of his existence. Then again, its possible for these things to be true, which is kind of my point. I understand the the reluctance to accept that. I’m just saying that there are ways for it to be true, however unlikely.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/29/2019 4:44 pm

There are ways for it to be true, but currently (unless god decides to stop playing hide and seek and actually show up) there is no pathway to truth when it comes to ANY iteration of ANY god being.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Leaf
06/30/2019 8:53 pm

It’s not a problem at all for me.
If there is sufficient evidence to support the legend, then you believe it.
If there is not, then you don’t believe it, until there is.
If there is evidence against it, you don’t believe it.

Im much more concerned with what is true, rather than what someone believes.
If something is not true, it doesn’t really matter how strong your belief is… you’re still wrong.

pompano
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 2:55 pm

Where god went wrong.
Some more of god’s greatest mistakes.
and, Who is this god person anyway?
my summer reading list 🙂

Brylowman
Brylowman
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:48 pm

Psalms 135:6. Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. 7. He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

The Bible described the rain cycle before science did. In fact, most of the major scientists believed the Bible and made great discoveries in accordance with it.

God is in control of the weather, just like He is in control of people. We do not judge God, He judes us. If you don’t like that fact, it’s your choice to not believe it. But the one you’re actually judging is yourself, and not God.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Brylowman
06/29/2019 5:16 pm

Where are the ends of the Earth? It’s a sphere, not a flat circle held aloft by pillars (as the bible says it is).

“He maketh lightnings for the rain” – literally just says ….. lightning comes with the rain. That’s an observation that anyone could have made, and an assertion that god makes lightning (which he doesn’t) not an explanation of anything.

The wind doesn’t come from gods secret treasuries. Again, that’s an observation (There is wind, and it often comes with rain), and an assertion that god causes it…. Not an explanation of how things actually work.

The bible hasn’t described the rain cycle IN ANY WAY…. Someone wrote down some basic observations. I.E. When it rains there is wind and lightning. And then an assertion that god is the cause.

This is just another in a long line of examples were the biblical verse has been interpreted to mean something AFTER science has explained how it works.
Before science explained it, all that verse did was assert : “God maketh lightning and rain and wind.” — and it either got the details wrong (ends of the flat earth sitting on pillars) or it ‘explained’ it by claiming the wind was stored in some kind of space (treasury) that god ‘let it out of’ during the a rainstorm.

It’s no different than someone writing down that the titans, living above the gods, blew great breaths into the sky stirring the clouds and sending them across the lands. As the rain fell Zues threw giant bolts of lightning at the lands, while Thor smashed his hammer against his shield causing crashing waves of thunder to shake the very ground beneath your feet.

It certainly describes the weather (wind, rain, lightning and thunder) … which is nothing but an observation.
But it’s “causation” for the weather… Zues, Thor, and the Titans is not at all the true. ….. It’s not a description of the weather cycle, and it’s not at all accurate.

Tony Sommer
06/29/2019 11:13 am

It’s pretty weird how there are huge clumps of water above our heads all the time and it’s considered perfectly normal.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 12:06 pm

It’s clear and concise in what you wrote.
The math is there, but you seemed to work from what would be easier (math wise) rather than to look up how much water an average cloud actually holds.
IE. You started with the conclusion, based on the ease of calculation, and then backwards extrapolated the data. (To be fair, you acknowledged this in your post)

I get it, some folks don’t like math. So, to me, either you leave the math out, and link/notate your sources; Or you do just what you did. You show the math (no matter how complex) and let people that don’t want to see the math just skip ahead. Personally, I would not have picked a number that makes the math work easier for the sake of showing the calculation.

It’s a nice “shower thought” (how much does a cloud weigh). The writing style is easy to read, and not written too complexly for the audience (although, I would have defined those various types of clouds for the unfamiliar with the subject of clouds). Overall, I’d give it an 8.8 out of 10.

I used to write the “Ramblings with an Idiot” posts back in the day over at that other place.
We have completely different styles. I tend to mix logical thought trains with terrible puns, humor additions, and straight absurdity in order to ‘lighten’ a piece that would otherwise be too heavy for the chosen audience. But everyone has their own style of writing, and I find yours to be clear, concise, and (unlike me) free from the 17% typos that have to be edited out after the post has already gone live.
=)

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 12:28 pm

Maybe not a link. That might not be necessary. Rather, just a general rule.
“X” type of cloud, that looks like “Y”, and resides in “Z” part of the atmosphere tends to carry “more/less (by % maybe?)” water.
Thus comparing the various types of clouds based on average containment of water, since that’s the subject of the piece. Really, I don’t know enough about clouds to even know if one type carries more water than the other, or if upper and lower atmosphere strata have anything to do with the weight of water in a cloud. I’m completely ignorant to that subject.

And I happen to be the kinda guy that goes down ‘blind internet tunnels’ for hours on end, looking up things that I’ll never use again in my entire life…..just cause at that particular moment… I wonder about some subject. Again, not everyone is like me, so take any advice I give with a grain of salt. I may not be your target audience.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 12:36 pm

okay, I did assume you just plucked “how much rain a cloud can produce” out of the sky (1cm deep over an area of X by Y) based on what would make the math easier. If you actually got that number from a source somewhere, then I stand corrected.

Heh, You are indeed correct about that.
But, I’m guessing someone will argue about it anyway… hahaha… cause.. .internet blog….. =P

Chief-Blinders-On
Chief-Blinders-On
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 4:35 pm

Ramblings with an Idiot were the best.

Texas Chief
Texas Chief
Reply to  Chief-Blinders-On
06/29/2019 4:46 pm

/bow awww, aren’t you sweet for saying that.

Chief-Blinders-On
Chief-Blinders-On
Reply to  Texas Chief
06/29/2019 5:12 pm

It really was great. That and best and worst with His Dirkness are things I still wish I could read every now and again.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
06/29/2019 12:32 pm

I thought it was good. It was something I “knew”, but I had never really thought about before.

Chickennpickles
Chickennpickles
Reply to  Tony Sommer
06/29/2019 3:55 pm

Same. I’m not a big fan of math, mostly because I never took it very far. I did the bare minimum for college & stopped there. But sometimes I’m in the mood to present myself with a problem that’s difficult (for me) to figure out. This was a great example of an interesting problem that would give me endless hours of mind boggling frustration.

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