Into the Afternight, Your 3rd Shift Open Thread.

 92 replies

Post-Sutton edition.

I will be frank, I’m still struggling with the new truth, that offensive points in the first half have no bearing on the outcome of games. Same goes for the popular belief that as long as the unit’s popular, the offense only has to show up in the last quarter.

Where did all these rabid Alex Smith fans come from? I mean, if Smith had a scoreless first half in a game, I’d blame the loss at least in part on him. But I’m not supposed to say that about Mahomes. Mahomes and the offense did nothing to lose the game, or so I’m told.

Unfortunately, I’m still stuck in the past, where when an offensive unit lets itself get blanked for a half has made a significant contribution to the loss, due to their crappy performance.

Anyway, I’m post-Sutton now, so I’ll leave his haters to bash and bash on him all night long, if they haven’t tired themselves out by beating a dead horse already. I suspect that most of you have something more intelligent to say than mindless Bob-bashing, but that, ultimately, is up to you.

With that, time’s yours.

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Mitko
01/23/2019 12:40 am

I will say that I am pissed at Reid because after all this time his plan to beat come out and best cover zero/cover one was to stretch run into it.
I’ll give credit to Bill B too. He was able to effectively disguise cover 0/1 while always double teaming Tyreek immediately.

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:55 am

The first 3 possessions were bad playcalling, completely out schemed.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 1:29 am

I really don’t want to watch the game again, but I’m wondering if they kept the blanket converage on hill all game. Never having his man blitz, and always having a second player follow him too

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:41 am

Gotta get the all 22 for it. Makes it more clinical. Rewatching the broadcast will just amplify the pain.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 1:55 am

Rewatching any of it will hurt. Though honestly this game didn’t hurt near as bad as other years. I’m more dissapointed I don’t get to watch the Chiefs play again until August. Maybe it was because it was the Championship game, or maybe I’m just numb from going to the Chargers game, the Titans, and Pittsburgh.
Honestly this may be my last playoff game for awhile though. Not because I’m dissapointed with the team, but because I go to the games for the atmosphere, and this time… It just was not a good one

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:58 am

How so?

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 2:10 am

I went over it in other threads, but to summarize taking an hour and a half to get in while being squished in line, fans being disrespectful and not know how to act, ECT., Parking and ticket prices costing an arm and a leg

Tyrone
01/23/2019 12:13 am

I’ve got a lot of respect for the way Dee handled himself to the media after the game

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article224874575.html

I would love to come back here, I would love to be here, but that’s out of my control.

Mitko
Reply to  Tyrone
01/23/2019 12:18 am

Unlike most people I actually like Dee Ford, he reminds me of a less talented DT. He’s worked hard to expand his pass rush moves. He made a bone head play, but no one would remember it if the pass haven’t been picked.

Tyrone
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:22 am

It was a bone head play turned into an infamous play by some classic Chiefs luck.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 2:06 am

Yup I know he gets shit but I still have hopes for Hitchens, I think he was still bothered by his injury and was being used wrong schematically

Sudden
Sudden
01/23/2019 12:10 am

The thing is going in we expected more of our offense, especially more than we got in the first half. So in a way, the offense deserves more blame if only because of expectations. The identity of this team all season has been about offense after all.

The offense wasn’t helped much by a defense that gave up long plodding drives not allowing the offense to get warm, but despite being dominated they only gave up 14 first half points.

Ultimately, Belichick did to us what the chargers did by shortening the game/# of possessions in the first half.

Offense recovered in the second half and made it a horse race that came down to last team with the ball. But this team was predicated on getting a lead early and pinning the ears back. Hoodie schemed that away.

Tyrone
01/22/2019 11:53 pm

I’m already sick of talking about Boob Sutton anyway. Everything of value that could be said about him has already been said all season. What is exciting now – and needs to start happening soon so we can stop talking about Sutton – is being able to pontificate of the potential replacements. There’s going to be heaps to talk about that is going to be vastly more interesting than beating the dead Sutton constantly.

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:17 am

TRhe offense ploayed like ass for three two quarters

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:28 am

7 in the third….except that 81% of the yards of a second TD drive took place in the third quarter, only to have 2 additional plays run in the 4th quater to actually get the score. so the offense played very well in the 3rd quarter.

3 Drives
own 26 yard line to TD – 74 yards 2:04
own 4 yard line to own 8 yard line – 4 yards punt 2:41
own 25 yard line to NE 14 yard line – 61 yards 4:02 (TD was scored 2 plays later)

Don’t act like the 3rd quarter wasn’t good for the offense.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:29 am

Technically they scored 7 in the 3rd but they score on the first play in the 4th after a 4 min drive in the first. They scored in 50% of their possessions in the third. If you look at the box score, it appears the offense sucked for three quarters, but ask Seth about box score analysis.

Tyrone
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:31 am

Yes. They had 3 drives that started in the 3rd quarter and 2 of the drives ended in TDs. The gained 147 yards in the 3rd quarter alone. Pretty simple

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:32 am

147 yards on offense in the 3rd quarter alone.

Tyrone
01/22/2019 11:50 pm

Like it or not, performing at the end of game when it matters most is vastly more important than how you start it.

Fuckstick Brady is the best because most of the time he dominates the end of games, and rarely even gives the other team’s offense a chance.

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/22/2019 11:57 pm

That’s true, he did start the game well. Marching up and down the field at will the first 2 drives until he gifted the ball away.

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:20 am

That’s debatable that Brady even played well to start the game. You could argue that the defense made him look a lot better than he was.

The offense did play badly for the first half. They more than made up for it in second half.

The defense played badly in the first half, even worse in the second half, and atrociously in overtime.

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:41 am

The offense took the lead on 2 separate occasions in the 4th quarter, only to have the defense lose that lead for them again. They then tied it up (only failing to win it due to lack of time), and then never got another chance to win it due to the defense failing again.

Tyrone
Reply to  Tyrone
01/23/2019 12:43 am

I for one, am not absolving the offense of all blame. I am putting much more blame on the defense though. I absolutely reject your assertion that the offense was more to blame then the defense. You’re allowed to have that opinion though. I will never try to stop you or anyone from having an opinion.

But as long as people keep saying that the last loss was all on the defense, I’m not shutting up about the fact that the defense played a better overall game than the offense did

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:51 am

The defense allowed 94 plays, for 348 passing yards, 176 rushing yards. That combines for 524yards 37points and 44mins of offense, but yes tell me how they out played the Chiefs offense

Mitko
01/22/2019 11:41 pm

Apparently not only the commenters, but also players and coaches disagreed with your stance on Bob Sutton, Brag. Yes, the Chiefs would have won the game if they had scored points in the 1st half, but that’s like getting mad at a pitcher for allowing a HR in the first inning, pitching a shutout the rest of the game and losing 1-0. Yeah, you could blame the pitcher for that run, but really it’s the rest if the teams fault for not being able to score.
Over the course of the year the Top offense (KC) scored 3.12 points per drive. That last game they score 3.1 points per drive (not including the end if half kneel down) it doesn’t matter when the points were scored, only that they were scored. Punt, punt, punt, TD, TD, TD= punt, TD, punt, TD, punt TD.
The difference between the offense and the defense is that the offense adjusted to adversity the defense collapsed to it.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:03 am

The Chiefs offense sucked on 3 possessions, they had very limited chances because the defense not only allowed the Pats to score, they allowed them to use up all the time in the first half doing it

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:25 am

True. But it would be wrong the expect your defense to suddenly become a team strength after winning in spite of it much of the season. The identity of the team is offensive. And it’s most successful iterations are jumping to an early lead and pinning the ears back. That was complicated by the temperatures and the sheer time standing around in said temperatures because of the long drives. And probably some jitters. Mahomes has started slower in his larger stage games, though yes, he always catches up.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 12:33 am

In the end the offense scored almost the exact average points per drive that they did all season. The defense allowed more points per drive than they averaged this year. Statistically, the O played like the best offense did all season, while the Defense played worse than the worst defense all season.

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:50 am

And that’s to be expected. NE is better offensively than our average offensive opponent and probably slightly worse defensively than our average defensive opponent. I think if we score early this turns into a far different game.

Seems like Belichick schemed Reid’s first 15 plays perfectly. I would need to rewatch, something i’m not ready for yet, but on initial viewing it didn’t seem like failed execution as much as the early playcalling being stymied. If there was any offensive unit that looked to blame it would be the OL.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 12:58 am

The defense still needs to make stops for the offense to gain the lead.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 1:18 am

They took the lead 2x and the defense promptly gave up 2 time consuming TDs

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:04 am

They did, and the offense did.

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:10 am

They stopped the second drive. Barely, and only after giving up the length of the field over what seemed like an hour, but they did. The D had only given up 14 points at the half in spite of being gashed and gassed from being on the field for that entire time.

I’m not saying the defense played better than the offense. But I expect a lot more from Reid and Mahomes than Sutton and Hitchens. Because that’s what this team was this year when it was most successful.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 1:17 am

Defense got lucky with a terrible throw by Brady in the EZ, but again KC would have had to go 3/3 to take the lead at half time, then come out and scored so 4/4 to get that 2 possession lead that would apparently dramatically improve our defense

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 1:02 am

Quick question. Can I randomly call you names like Poopy doodie head, or smelly hair person? Not asking because of your opinion on the BS situation. I just want to be able to call random people a random child hood insult name. By the by. Feel free to call me fart face, or pee pants if the need ever arises.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 1:32 am

The oline could not figure out who was it wasn’t coming with the cover 0&1. Didn’t help that they kept running with all the NE players at the line

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 1:13 am

Damn I feel like I’m arguing with PhatAl here. You’re right, the offense didn’t score enough to win, with the defense that they have. Give them almost any other defense in the league and they probably did. This year you were given one of the greatest points per possession and scoring teams of all time. They lived up to that standard this game, but apparently you’ve been spoiled by them all season, so much so that if they aren’t even better than amazing they played awful.
This is the only team in the history of the NFL to score 50 and lose. I would call it a defensive problem, but maybe you would unrealisticly expect the offense to score 54 points every game to make sure we won.
You keep saying having a lead early makes a difference. Maybe against bad teams like the Raders and Colts, but not against the Pats. KC was tied or had a lead 4 times in the game. Each time what happened? Pats scored a long, time consuming drive for a TD. Plus to get an early lead the defense has to produce multiple stops in a row.

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:38 am

Don’t take it so personal. I’m not phatal and i’m not shitting on mahomes or pining for alex.

The defense has been shit all season. We all know we needed change. We all knew it last year and the year before that too. I’m not absolving them of that.

I’m saying this year, this team, it’s identity was offense and its best games were predicated on early scoring. You had to know that against a top 5 offense lead by the like it or not GOAT QB it was gonna get trampled. And that belichick would scheme slow clock running drives to limit our possessions. Our only chance was consistently scoring on more than half our possessions.

Yes, with a better defense it’s a different story. We didn’t have a better defense going into this. But we had a historically great offense, and it was more reasonable to expect a historically great offense to hang 40 on a midrange defense w a talented coach than holding a the fucking GOAT and his top 5 offense w an awful defense w a shitty DC.

Is that blaming the offense? Nah, it’s just saying we all knew that our only hopes this year resided entirely with it.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 1:46 am

No worries. I’m not taking anything personal and I’m not calling you PhatAl. I felt like the offense was getting a much worse rep than they deserved. If I was giving combined grades and say 100 was passing the offense would get 80 and the defense would get 14. This felt like a very B game for our offense and we needed an A. I just think it should be easier to go from 14 to 20 than going from 80 to 86 just like on a test

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 1:57 am

I get that. What’s both promising and scary is that it for the most part wasn’t failed execution as much as failed coaching. The only unit that I thought executed below average was OL. ILBs were characteristically bad and the defensive scheme didn’t help, much like all season.

Honestly it was the first offensive possession that got to me. I don’t care if andy had his first 15 plays charted. After an 8 minute deliberate burn the clock strategy drive by the pats, you gotta sling it and open the game up. You mentioned stretch runs above and I think it was 2 straight stretch runs vs cover zero to start.

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 2:03 am

That was frustrating, cover 0 is definitely the Chiefs weakness, but the good news is most teams don’t have the personal to run it. I know this is a hot take, but I think Hitchens improved the last month or so in run defense. I’m wondering if he was still recovering from an injury. Needs to improve at covering RBs out of the backfield though

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 2:15 am

Hitchens came along vs the run, Ragland vs the pass. Missing DoD to cover backs hurt us.

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:07 am

I’ve asked you this before and you didn’t respond. If the offense scored 14 points in the first half and 17 points in the second half, would the final score have changed? Would you still be blaming the offense and letting the defense slide?

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:56 am

In order to be playing from ahead the defense needs to get stops, which the defense proved all game they couldn’t do unless it was do to fluky tipped passes. They forced one punt all game. They offense would have had to play perfect in the first half:3 possessions, 3 TDs to get ahead by one score, the way the the defense gave up points in the first half .

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 1:27 am

To win an AFC championship game I’m expecting the defense to not allow the opposing team score and take up 8 minutes on offense on almost every drive in the first half. Make a 3 &out once the entire game and the Chiefs win. Not only do you stop them from scoring but you allow more time in the game and another Chiefs possession. The Chiefs didn’t score on 4 possession the entire game, that’s pretty typical if not better than average for them this season, but those 4 failures hurt more this game because of the defense’s inability to get off the field and create more possessions.

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
01/22/2019 11:30 pm

The big difference between AS11 and Mahomes is that when AS11 got blanked in the first half he lost confidence. Mahomes on the other hand figures it out and hits back hard as soon as he has it figured out. In regards to the defense this year I think it was more a personnel and position coach issue. We hired a new guy to be the ILB coach and that group at best couldn’t manage to stop anything coming their way. We also trotted out three slot corners and asked them to be the outside guys. They actually performed at a mid pack level due to the DB coach, but that same coach couldn’t coach up the tree stump and the comically lost safeties we had to trot out for over half the season. Sutton should have been all over his position coaches in the areas they failed, but he also should have been able to adapt his schemes. The whole thing is just bad from start to finish. Reid after the first few games should have been pushing Sutton to push his position coaches to coach the players up.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
01/22/2019 11:35 pm

Also, like it or not, people judge you based on how you perform at the end of games, and in the last 3 drives Mahomes took a turnover and turned it into a TD (something Smith failed to do against the Titans) to take the lead, led a long touchdown drive to take the lead again, then lead another long drive with very little time left at the end of the game for a game tying field goal.

Smith routinely failed at the end of games. Even against the Colts (where overall he had a very good game) he failed at the end.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/22/2019 11:47 pm

I mostly agree with you. The offense, and Mahomes, deserve some blame. But when you score 31 points, no matter when they come, you should be able to win the game, so it’s mostly on the defense. For example the Rams and Saints scored 23 in regulation in their game, and in the divisional round only the Patriots scored more than 31 points.

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/23/2019 12:07 am

You also have to take into consideration that big and small things at the end of a game have more importance due to the fact that there is less time to over come those mistakes or penalties. That Dee Ford off sides penalty in the first half would not effect the game as much as it did at the very end of regulation.

That was one of the reasons I liked Haley. For all of his faults he put a premium on conditioning. He was the coach the team needed when he was hired. After two years though he lost the team for the very same reasons he was needed here. His personality and demeanor is what makes him a good coach and a bad coach. If he rode his guys into the ground and got them playing well he needs to take the fire he had and turn it into passion for the team that was now performing. Haley didn’t have that switch in his head to know when he had to back off. A good coach knows when to ride a player hard, and which players he can ride hard and the ones that need a softer touch. The best combinations would consist of a players type of head coach that all players respect, and the coordinators that have the fire to jump the players in their squad, but respect the HC enough to back off when the HC tells them to.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
01/23/2019 12:09 am

I actually liked Haley a lot. I’d rather have Reid, but if I was a team in need of a HC I’d give him a call. He won 10 games with Matt Cassel!

Mitko
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/23/2019 12:12 am

The schedule was so easy that year and he couldn’t win the division when then best team was the 8-8 broncos. Dude went rouge in KC, PIT, And CLE. Got caught trying to undermine the browns so he could move up the ladder. Hard pass on Haley

Mitko
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/22/2019 11:57 pm

You say the offense crapped the bed for 2 quarters, but they only got 3 real possessions, why? Because Bob Sutton’s defense allowed NE to slowly March down the field and take up all the clock. 3 possession of suck sounds a lot better than 2 quarters.

Tyrone
Reply to  BleedingRedAndGold
01/23/2019 12:01 am

Offense crapped the bed for arguably 3 quarters???

The Chiefs had 3 drives that started in the 3rd quarter, and 2 of them were 75 yard TD drives.

Either you’re misremembering some aspects of the game, or being a little disingenuous.

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
Reply to  Tyrone
01/23/2019 12:56 am

The second TD was in the 4th actually. the score at the end of the 3rd was 17 – 7 Patriots. In the 4th quarter is where the game became a shoot out. We tore the Patriots apart in the 4th quarter and Andy should have let Mahomes decide the game with 11 seconds left. The way Mahomes was playing there very well may have been a TD instead of a field goal. But the killer play was the Dee Ford off sides. In that situation since Ford didn’t adjust his position it should have been off setting due to illegal formation and a replay of downs. Brady gets rattled when he has a multiple pick game, but our defense tends to also give up on third downs as well. So without the Ford off sides call we really don’t know the out come.

Tyrone
Reply to  KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
01/23/2019 3:56 am

The second TD was in the 4th, but that drive started in the 3rd, the bulk of the drive took place in the 3rd, and the TD was just punched in in the 4th.

Tony Sommer
01/22/2019 11:25 pm

Snarky, I like it. Here’s an alternate argument.

Under Andy Reid we have had 7 playoff games. The most points scored was 44 in that first one, but the second and third highest scoring were the two this year, scoring 31 points both times. If we scored 31 points in every playoff game we’d be 5-2.

On another note, it’s frustrating that we always lose the close playoff games. Those 2 wins were by a combined 48 points, while our 5 losses were by a combined 17 points.

Mitko
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/22/2019 11:49 pm

Reid has a history of that with both the Eagles and Chiefs. Reid has only ever lost in regulation by more than 3 points once I believe. On the other hand, Reid has only won by less than one score once or twice. He’s like +44 in point deferential in the playoffs or something crazy like that.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  Mitko
01/22/2019 11:53 pm

Just glancing at his playoff record with the Eagles it doesn’t seem to be the case. He had several 10+ point losses, and a couple close wins. Here he has a +31 point differential despite a 2-5 record. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Mitko
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/22/2019 11:58 pm

Maybe I’m thinking of his first round matchups due to my earlier article.

KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
Reply to  Mitko
01/23/2019 12:24 am

Due to the nature of the play offs a winning record is almost impossible to achieve as a head coach. Say as a head coach you have a team that manages to make the play offs every year out of ten, but lose your first game five of those years, win your first game in the wild card round two years, but lose the next game in that season. Get a bye week in three years as either the one or two seed but lose one divisional game and win two, and then win the divisional championships one year to make it to the super bowl. Your play off record stands at 6-8. Even if you win the Super Bowl you have a losing record in the play offs at 7-8.

That is one of the reasons I would like to see the play offs become a 2 loss system. You get a wild card opponent that falls. They play the next week to the other fallen team. They lose and the are out. With that system we would end up with a true 1 – 4 in the rankings, and it would add a little excitement to the play offs knowing that a loss doesn’t drop your team out of at least the number three team. If that type of system was in place we would get at least another chance to prove we belonged where our record said we belonged.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  KC Dude (A.K.A Zif)
01/23/2019 12:30 am

That’s an interesting idea, and now that I look at it it only adds a game or two.

Tyrone
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/23/2019 12:38 am

The Australian Football League has an 8 team finals series. 1v4 & 2v3, 5v8 & 6v7.
The winners of the 1v4 & 2v3 games then get a week off, and the losers of the 1v4 & 2v3 games go on to play the winners of the 5v8 & 6v7 games.

The winners of those games then play the 2 teams that had a week off.

Then the following week it’s the “Grand Final”

Sudden
Sudden
Reply to  Tyrone
01/23/2019 1:42 am

Be difficult to adapt to the conference system

Mitko
Reply to  Sudden
01/23/2019 1:47 am

Americans also love their one and done playoffs. (The NFL even had commercials about it this year) plus players would hate playing more games

Fire_FG_the_moron
Fire_FG_the_moron
01/22/2019 11:25 pm

I’ve seen, heard and read so much as it relates to Sutton. Some of it I take with a grain of salt, others bother me. At the end of the day, if you’re not doing your job effectively (at least to you superiors’ assessment) it is within the discretion of your employer to dismiss you. I’ve been on both ends. I’ve been fired for (in my employers opinion) poor performance. I’ve also dismissed an employee for poor performance. Neither is fun. I hope this decision is a step forward for the Chiefs. Thats all I got.
Times yours.

Tony Sommer
Reply to  Fire_FG_the_moron
01/22/2019 11:27 pm

Before this year my opinion on him was that he was the Alex Smith of DC’s. He simply reflects the talent he has. But this year the defense way under performed the talent level. So at this point I’m on board with letting him go. It’s a shame Bowles is already taken.

Fire_FG_the_moron
Fire_FG_the_moron
Reply to  Tony Sommer
01/22/2019 11:38 pm

If I thought it was realistic, I’d suggest they go after the DC from Clemson. We’ll likely just get a stop gap DC that improves the defense for a year then moves on.

Tyrone
Reply to  Fire_FG_the_moron
01/22/2019 11:45 pm

I would love to get a stop-gap DC that performs well enough to move on to a HC gig.

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