Hill denies abuse allegations per letter

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There is a lot to unpack here. Some key parts of the article:

Pettlon denied Hill played any role in breaking their son’s arm. The attorney notes the boy was examined at the hospital and the injury was considered an accident.

Pettlon also cites text messages between Hill and Espinal, claiming Espinal admitted to leaving marks on their son while spanking him.

So this is far from over. I don’t want to speculate on what actually happened. It is hard not to question Crystal (his fiancee) as well in all this (this does NOT excuse Hill of any behavior). Right now, the important thing is that Hill’s son appears to be safe under state custody.

More information:

Terez Paylor has a twitter thread with even more information:

Link to letter: http://www.espn.com/pdf/2019/0502/nfl_hill-tyreek_r.pdf

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QuackTastic
QuackTastic

One tiny observation. I just landed back in Paris after a week in Geneva, and travelling internationally can be stressful af. This Dubai debacle tape where he said “you should be terrified of me too,” while it’s a terrible thing, especially for HIM to say, travel stress is a bitch and I’ve certainly said some things I regret in the heat of the moment.

QuackTastic
QuackTastic

Definitely need to let this play out before making any major decisions with Hill. There’s way too much he said she said going on in this story. This Espinal chick is starting to sound more and more cray cray and an unreliable witness.

BDChiefsFan
BDChiefsFan

can this be over? i hate this saga.

personally, i shouldnt have jump to a conclusion. but tbh, Hill’s texts seem inconsistent with the audio tape. i think it was cleaned up a lot. and i am doubtful to take the word of the defendants lawyer word for word.

for now, the only opinion for me that has changed is, lets wait it out. lets see what comes out in court. until then, I would not play Hill. I would not release him either.

my most likely position is, hold onto Hill, and DONT play him. this way, no other teams can sign him.

Morning Huddle – Chiefs’ Tyreek Hill gives NFL a 4-page rebuttal against child abuse accusations – Arrowhead Guys

[…] goes to great lengths to bring facts as well as providing a lengthy Twitter feed on the subject, which we covered here. In an effort to be open and transparent with our readers, I wanted you to know that I’m not […]

Brylowman
Brylowman

To me this seems like a witch hunt. People didn’t like Tyreek because of his past so they’ve been waiting for the tiniest thing wherewith to crucify him. His son breaks his arm and even though the doctors say it was an accident it opens the flood gates of accusations without proof. In checking up on the case it is discovered that they use corporal punishment with their son. (The only way to discipline although it may have been too excessive.) Then the leftist snowflake DA determines that even though he has no way to convict him in court he will do so in the public’s eye. This whole affair has not been about the child but about destroying Tyreek. If it was about the boy they could have just removed him from the situation, then let Tyreek make a ton of money and support him.

Kim Jong Pete
Kim Jong Pete

That leftist snowflake DA (Steve Howe) is a Republican.
But I don’t see why politics needs to get injected into this. All of us, regardless of our politics, can agree hurting kids is wrong.

NHChiefsfan
NHChiefsfan

Party affiliation doesn’t really mean anything. A person can be a Republican and still be a Leftist. But I agree that children being hurt and/or abused should transcend politics. There are many things that should not be political.

Kim Jong Pete
Kim Jong Pete

left·ist
/ˈleftəst/
noun
1. a person with left-wing political views.

NHChiefsfan
NHChiefsfan

Exactly. Left-wing POLITICAL VIEWS…..not Party. You see it often in the Republican Party with infiltrators known as RINOs.

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

I think it’s funny when someone keeps calling anyone that wants to know all of the facts before they condemn someone a homer. Yet that same person defended every Chiefs pick like it was the best one that could possibly be available which in my eyes is more of a homer.

Anthony Stratton

In a way, we’re all a little homer.

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

True I guess I know I am. Hell I don’t guess I even know if someone is considered a fan if they’re not at least a little bit of one.

Anthony Stratton

Right. Nothing to be ashamed of. Even as much of a “hater” as I can be, I’m still a homer for this team til the end.

Ride or Die Chiefs Kingdom.

MasterChief
MasterChief

I’m so homer that I get pissed every time a Royal hits a homer.

I’m usually the first one to dive head-first into the ocean of Bert’s High Quality Kool-aid.

That doesn’t mean I want a child abuser on my team.
It does mean I hope Tyreek isn’t a child abuser and is able to remain a Chief after all.
And it says nothing about my hope that justice is served no matter the outcome.

fansince63
fansince63

Right Tony. Mmmmmmmmmmm……..Donuts!

slackator
slackator

and no comments from a certain female reporter who likes to hold on to “evidence” for the sake of ratings?

dablueguy
dablueguy

I suspect many people that planted their flags early and were adamant that the Chiefs cut Hill immediately, without any hard evidence, are looking at themselves in the mirror today. At least if they are honest, and are able to learn from their mistakes.

TNCHIEFS
TNCHIEFS

This whole thing feels managed and massaged to me. The only thing I’d hang my hat on at this point is the months of texts prior to the bombs dropping where the natural course of communication was occurring between two people in a relationship. That doesn’t solve a potential crime. But at least it points to the character and state of mind of the individuals involved, as over months a couple can experience the whole realm of emotional attachment and conflict.

ChiefJerky
ChiefJerky

The problem I keep seeing here is a conflation of 2 issues. Question 1: Did Hill commit child abuse? Question 2: Does his behavior throughout the situation warrant him losing his job anyway? Separate arguments. People presuming that he’s guilty of child abuse at this point have little to no evidence. If you’re claiming he broke his kids arm, beat his kid, saying he should be in prison, you’re jumping the gun, and I think you’re being a piece of shit. For people saying he should be cut from the team (for the record, I have said this) like it or not, at the end of the day that’s our subjective opinion, and it will ultimately come to the feelings of ownership, management, and coaching staff. They might interpret his words in that recording in any number of different ways, as clearly a lot of us here have different interpretations of the recording. I’ve seen recorders claiming it incriminates him of child abuse (I see zero evidence of that) people like me have said the “you should be terrified” line is alarming given his past, others say that line didn’t sound like a physical threat given the way he said it. The more we learn, the more grey this whole thing gets. With those text messages being verified, the more the idea that she was baiting him in that recording to get leverage starts to look reasonable. It’s interesting to me that even in his official statement, he won’t defend or make an excuse for those words. Throughout interviews, or videos on his youtube channel, I always thought Tyreek seemed noticeably immature (not in a bad way necessarily). If the Chiefs organization sees Tyreek’s words as a stupid, immature mistake, but clearly not malicious, I’d say it’s possible that he plays for the team again (barring the NFL butting in with a subjective suspension of their own, of course). Personally, I think he has to avoid saying something so stupid given what he did before. I’ve said he broke his short leash with those words. Maybe it’s only strained, but… Read more »

d-block
d-block

Call me gullible, but I really want to believe him. Let’s wait until all the information is available, then decide what to do.

zulu trader
zulu trader

can I just call you a homer instead?

ArrowheadRed
ArrowheadRed

Would you stop going to the movie theater if the assistant manager was accused of child abuse?
What about a bowling alley?
What about an ice cream shop?

zulu trader
zulu trader

yes, yes, and HELL yes

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

No but I probably would if he was convicted of it.

Pelletman
Pelletman

Call him an American… innocent until proven guilty. It’s sick that we now live in a shitty SJW society where guilt is presumed first and foremost.

BigRed
BigRed

For all of you that are bringing up the original incident with Tyreek when he was a teenager, before we drafted him, and using that to now presume guilt currently and to use it as a reason to not have him on the team…..

How many of his TD’s did you cheer and celebrate over the years, while still having knowledge of that? I’m just curious. Did you cheer? Or did you look at him in disgust and outrage(while we are still waiting for this to play out and gather all of the facts) as you are now?

asian_fetish
asian_fetish

For the record, I don’t want Hill kicked off the team because I selfishly want a Superbowl. That being said, I think Hill lost the privilege of receiving benefit of the doubt in situations like this the second he punched and choked a pregnant woman.

zulu trader
zulu trader

thanks for coming out of the closet

Tyrone
Tyrone

Need a DJ article. Retiring as a Chief

upamtn

which he should’ve done BEFORE he signed with the Raiders …

just my two cents

Team Player
Team Player

Grumpy today, my friend.

BoJest
BoJest

Would you like to borrow my avatar? lol

Tyrone
Tyrone

Should have, but oh well.

Anthony Stratton

Then the Chiefs shoulda gave him a chance…

BDChiefsFan
BDChiefsFan

no. DJ did whatever to pay his bills. EVERY Single one of us (maybe one or two exemptions) would do it. insider, we would be hurting, but outside we need to earn dough for our families.

StramtoReid
StramtoReid

I don’t understand why a psychologist from social services can’t talk to Hill’s son to find out what happened to his arm, and how his parents treat him

I’m not sure if we will ever know the real truth, we also don’t know if Hill is going to counseling to get help or to keep from being kicked out of the NFL.

I just wonder if everybody is going to flip flop again if Hill’s girlfriend disputes Hill’s attorney’s letter.

BleedingRedAndGold

That wouldn’t accomplish much good. What would be best for the kids is for their parents to fix their relationship and their own issues* with Hill remaining gainfully employed. *From the information that I have seen, especially Hill’s letter, it sounds to me like both of them grew up in dysfunctional families. That goes a long ways toward explaining, though not necessarily excusing, their behavior to date.

But to me the most important aspect of the letter is that Hill’s being transparent and cooperating with the process, and is trying to better himself in the right way. Should he be punished for what the media and public has been saying about him, or should he be allowed to continue his career? Since if he’s cut from the team he’ll go on to play with another team anyway, unless some real contradictory evidence comes to light, for now my vote’s to keep him on the team.

BigRed
BigRed

What would be best for the kids is for their parents to fix their relationship and their own issues* with Hill remaining gainfully employed.

I agree wholeheartedly. No one ever mentions this, that I’ve seen, so kudos to you. The best thing for the child is for his biological parents to get help and work things out in their relationship and as parents. The money Tyreek Hill does or doesn’t make also directly has an impact on his children for years to come. So all those folks with pitchforks wanting to ban him from the NFL don’t think passed their faux outrage to see that will hurt the child as well. But, if Tyreek is suspended, cut, or banned, it will help THEM feel better. So they are truly just being selfish and not thinking of the child as they portray either.

BleedingRedAndGold

Up’d yours, though I do take slight issue with the term “faux outrage”, because I very much doubt that much of the outrage was fake. Misguided? Sure, quite possibly, but that’s one of the reason I have talked so much about the problems that arise from substituting sticking with a narrative for actual thought.

Seems to me a better alternative to getting in folks’ faces and calling them out. That just makes people get defensive, and gets them more deeply entrenched in their position.

Berserker
Berserker

Maybe “manufactured” would be a better word than “fake.”

StramtoReid
StramtoReid

I’m just saying, if you want to know if Hill’s son is being abused, a psychologist could get the truth. They can use dolls to get Hill’s son show how his parents discipline him.

I want Hill to be innocent, How do I know Hill didn’t tell his girlfriend to send a text saying she hurt her son? I can give you a 100 million reasons why she would lie in a text.

Leaf
Leaf

Psychology isn’t an exact science. If the child is being abused it could take months maybe years to brake down the walls they build to protect themselves. You might not think a three year old could build a wall, but you’d be surprised.

BleedingRedAndGold

“I’m just saying, if you want to know if Hill’s son is being abused, a psychologist could get the truth. They can use dolls to get Hill’s son show how his parents discipline him.”

I have less confidence in that process than most, but I remember all too well the whole “Child sex abuse cults!” panic from back in the 80s. Psychologists used used dolls and pointing in that, as well, but as things played out the allegations were mostly unfounded, and I still wonder if the guy who went to prison over the biggest day care scandal was sacrificed as a face-saving measure for prosecutors who saw their evidence evaporate after they claimed to be fighting pure evil.

Armychiefj
Armychiefj

Because 3 year olds aren’t reliable. And I mean that in a very technical sense. Ask a kid that age the same question while phrasing it three different ways and you will get three different answers. Not because he is lying but because his grasp of the English language is still quite lacking. Additionally, forensic interviews like that are often done in the CPS part of the investigation, but they aren’t admissible in criminal court and the kid would actually have to testify. That sucks, but it is how it is.

zulu trader
zulu trader

the psychologist doesn’t ‘speak’ 3-yr old?

Armychiefj
Armychiefj

Not in a way that will hold up in court. The first requirement of a psychological evaluation is that you can be certain you are getting reliable information. You can’t be certain of that with a 3 year old for the reason I just said. (Source: I am a licensed psychologist who does assessments, though I don’t work with kids).

ArrowheadRed
ArrowheadRed

I’ve witnessed multiple 3 year olds calling every man around them, “Daddy”. The word of a 3 year old means nothing.

Tyrone
Tyrone

I took my 3 year old to the doctor when she was having “growing pains”

Doctor: “Does you leg hurt now?”
3 year old: “Yes”
Me: “Is you leg still hurting?”
3 year old: “….No” *cheeky grin*

kcfreak725
kcfreak725

I don’t even know anymore

Panzer85
Panzer85

comment image

4thQtrMagic
4thQtrMagic

What a soap opera….ain’t social media great!

BleedingRedAndGold

Not just “social” media. The news media needs to be held accountable for the damage they appear to have done. They may not have violated any law, but their meddling for profit hasn’t made the boy’s situation a tiny bit better, and may have made his situation worse. I’d say “shame on them”, but I doubt any of them will ever feel ashamed enough to own their reckless actions and indifference to the boy and his future. They got their money from him.

Team Player
Team Player

There’s no accountability.

Fortunately the First Amendment keeps Congress from trying to fix it.

d-block
d-block

No, the FCC’s fairness doctrine was removed under the Reagan administration. That gave rise to all the extreme bias in news reporting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine

BleedingRedAndGold

Considering the gov’t’s track record of using force to “fix” things, very fortunately indeed. The frying pan is bad, but the governmental fire is far worse, not least because it doesn’t go away.

ForeverRanger91
ForeverRanger91

There is one key piece to this puzzle that is a little bit telling. Keep in mind who Hill’s agent is in all of this. I would imagine if Hill was in any major hot water for real, Rosenhaus would have dropped like a hot potato.

BigRed
BigRed

This is a great point that I have not even thought about until you posted this. That’s not a small thing that Rosenhaus is sticking by Hill, so far.

zulu trader
zulu trader

Rosenhaus stands to lose millions. Us poor everyday fans have a difficult time truly imagining what ten million dollars is, not to mention one hundred million

Team Player
Team Player

He’s lose millions more than just money from Hill if he dropped Hill. Would you hire an agent who wouldn’t have your back? Players notice this sort of thing.

Panzer85
Panzer85

I could try to understand if given the opportunity…

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

To do a proper experiment it must be repeated so I could really try to understand and for the sake of science I would be willing to try 3 maybe even 4 times a year.

Offense of the70s
Offense of the70s

That is the most fake “text exchange” I’ve ever seen. Come on, nobody texts like that. That is utterly ridiculous. If Hill was on another team, he’d be mocked here for claiming those are real texts.

ForeverRanger91
ForeverRanger91

If you read the whole thing, they have been electronically verified as real.

asian_fetish
asian_fetish

I think you’re forgetting the fact that these 2 individuals are collectively dumber than a box of rocks.

zulu trader
zulu trader

B-I-N-G-O … you win the door-prize!

NovaChiefs
NovaChiefs

You apologize to rocks right now!

BigRed
BigRed

Update: My understanding is that the text messages referred to (and directly mentioned) in the Hill letter have been authenticated.

— Terez A. Paylor (@TerezPaylor) May 2, 2019

Sudden
Sudden

I’m sure it was translated from emoji to English.

God I hate emojis

Anthony Stratton

:-*

NHChiefsfan
NHChiefsfan

You want to throw a throwing star at my junk?

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

😐😥

BleedingRedAndGold

c(_) And be glad I don’t dig out the adult-type ones at you. 😉

BDChiefsFan
BDChiefsFan

this^

venturachief
venturachief

I tend to agree. Do not look the least bit authentic. Hope it’s not true but this looks like an attempt to save the meal ticket at all costs.

BleedingRedAndGold

Tell it to the forensic specialist who verified that the months worth of texts are real. Go ahead, tell him that he’s incompetent and that by going from a few sound bites you know the facts better than he could from his review of everything.

Kim Jong Pete
Kim Jong Pete

I think he’s using “fake” in the sense of contrived, not questioning that they were actual texts.

Offense of the70s
Offense of the70s

Of course. They were completely contrived, it’s obvious. Good lord.

BleedingRedAndGold

I still stand by what I said. A contrived series of text spanning months makes less sense than the texts being real and the recording being an outlier – especially when all the public appears to know about the recording was a short snippet.

ChiefArrowhead
ChiefArrowhead

Ya, that’s the way I took it as well.

NHChiefsfan
NHChiefsfan

Except that they go back several months. So that really doesn’t make sense.

Team Player
Team Player

Seth said on the radio that the change in language is a common side effect of legal proceedings. He and his colleagues laugh at it.

I guess that’s natural. If you’re in London for a while your accent slowly becomes Britannic. If you spend a lot of time in a hospital bruises become contusions and cuts become lacerations.

Berserker
Berserker

….and if we spend a lot of time on social media then we all become assholes….

BleedingRedAndGold

Except here, even with some of the recent comments included. People have been pissed about the whole Hill thing, but nobody’s gotten severely out of line. Even with emotions running high, seems to me that everyone’s still protecting the culture we have grown here, and that’s a very good sign.

ForeverRanger91
ForeverRanger91

So what you are saying is that they are using this language because of all the legalese they have had to deal with?

ArrowheadRed
ArrowheadRed

I am certain Hill’s lawyer warned him all his texts were likely to be seen by the judge, so don’t say anything to hurt your case.

zulu trader
zulu trader

This is what I wrote yesterday. I’ll go ahead and quote myself again beacause I’m so smart and I love to hear the inner working of my brain

So, here’s what’s gonna’ happen; They’re ( Hills camp ) are going to shift blame to Espinal, they got a plan all worked out now, and Espinal will be in on it. Surely, she realizes at this point that if things continue as they are, she won’t get paid. We’ll get the spotlight off Hill and shift all blame to Espinal, make Hill look like a hero dad. Espinal will go along with the plan ( i.e. pretending to be passed out when cops arrive ) because $$$,$$$,$$$.

We got $100,000,000 on the line. That’s a lot of zeros. They’re gonna’ come up with all kinds of shit. All blame will shift to Espinal. Tyreek will continue to play, everybody will get paid, NFL continues to be spectacular, and life will go on, with the kid having a broken arm…. .

Now if you didn’t have the same take on this situation as me — that’s proof you’re a homer

because this whole scenario seems as obvious to me as the nose on my face

jmgunn0124
jmgunn0124

You’re the only one who loves to hear the inner working of your brain. If anyone tells you otherwise, that’s proof they’re your homer.

Not that you might not have good points, you’re just deplorable in how you display them.

zulu trader
zulu trader

your sense of disgust is homerisim at it’s finest. thanks

jmgunn0124
jmgunn0124

You could give your opinion on celery and I have no doubt you’d deliver it in the same manner. The topic makes no difference.

zulu trader
zulu trader

celery without peanut butter is f**king disgusting — homer

upamtn

you sick, sick bastard! you put cream cheese on celery, not peanut butter … my god, what a heathen!

Berserker
Berserker

This evening, I’m gonna go out and buy celery just so I can put peanut butter, AND cream cheese on it. At the same godamned time. With the same effin knife.

zulu trader
zulu trader

Gif anyone? celery peanut butter cream cheese dancing girls … anyone?

Kim Jong Pete
Kim Jong Pete

Try porn hub.

zulu trader
zulu trader

is that what you look for when you go there? Food and f**king?

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

I mean everyone has their kinks… me I feel food is good, sex is good, sex+food=not good.

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

I like celery plain… I think I am the weird one here.. {puts head down turns around and slowly leaves the room}

Chiefs4322
Chiefs4322

If you insist on name calling please go to the other site so you can fit in. I dont give a flying fuck about your opinion but that shit needs to go.

zulu trader
zulu trader

thank you homer

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

I always say name-calling is how we know what side you’re on. Hell I learned that in grade school I think it was the same day I learned to tie my shoes.😁

zulu trader
zulu trader

exactly — grade school behavior

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

You keep using the word homer… but I don’t think you use it correctly or I misunderstand how you are using it. I am not saying what you claim is possible, it is, you know what else is possible, that Crystal used the public opinion on Tyreek and his past to orchestrate an audio to make him out to be the bad guy in the situation. I don’t know if I believe either of them because as more information comes out this whole thing plays like a rollercoaster. To claim it is homerism to sit back and wait for things to play out is extremely assumptious and illogical. If I said that DOD will be the best linebacker in the league next year then you can say I was being homerish, but when dealing with peoples lives (because you know that is what we are actually discussing here) not jumping to conclusions based on limited information that is granted isn’t being a homer it is being responsible and mature.

zulu trader
zulu trader

makes me want to puke

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

Do you care to elaborate, does people being homers makes you puke, my opinion that being a homer and waiting for information are not the same thing, that I thought DOD being the best LB in the league next year isn’t very likely. I know it is probably because I said responsible and mature, I used to hate it when people would say stuff to me like that.

zulu trader
zulu trader

LOL

BigRed
BigRed

comment image

zulu trader
zulu trader

thank you so much! LOL

Leaf
Leaf

.

zulu trader
zulu trader

I see they even have Terez on board . . . but of course journalists are above reproach.

exactly how much is onehundredmilliondollars?

BleedingRedAndGold

So it’s a conspiracy now, or are you just trolling at this point?

zulu trader
zulu trader

hard to say what I might do for a large sum of money — how about you, fat-boy?

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

I don’t know I feel like I know excactly what I would or wouldn’t do for a large sum of money. For instance I would replace the floors, some walls and appliances for a couple that lost their kids but are doing everything in their power to get them back, but I would not move a crib from one room to another for a couple in a similar situation who is using the situation as an excuse to party for the same price. Thing about morals if they are real money doesn’t work as the biggest motivator.

jmgunn0124
jmgunn0124

Guess that’s your answer…

zulu trader
zulu trader

this goes back a couple a’ days — so butt out jmgunn

Leaf
Leaf

He’s obviously trolling. Just ignore his trolling comments. He’s harmless.

zulu trader
zulu trader

Hey Leaf — I hear your Mom callin’

Leaf
Leaf

Awesome. I was running low on cheese puffs and Code Red down here in the basement.

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

LEAF… I didn’t realize you were here I miss your anime comments and otherwise equally geektastic life as mine. I have a theory that with recent movies and the finality feeling from endgame DC might actually start “beating” Marvel at the box office in the next few years.

ArrowheadRed
ArrowheadRed

I signed up for an account just to criticize your absurd claim that the lawyer and the agent are currently involved in a cover up conspiracy.

No, Zulu Trader. The world is not flat. We do not live under a dome created by our Lizard Overlords.

Anthony Stratton

Welcome!

zulu trader
zulu trader

How the fuck do you like that Tony?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Mutherf**ker signed up so he could comment on my comment . . WOOOO–WHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Anthony Stratton

You’re the Saints of AG (who is the one I signed up at AP to tell off)

zulu trader
zulu trader

YYYEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS …. Nirvana!

zulu trader
zulu trader

Saints shoes are hard to fill

BigRed
BigRed

We do not live under a dome created by our Lizard Overlords.

Motherf*****, are you telling me my whole life is a lie?!?!

Well, regardless, welcome aboard. 🙂

zulu trader
zulu trader

Yeah, that would be the first time a lawyer and an agent were involved in a conspiracy

MidKan Chiefs Lifer
MidKan Chiefs Lifer

Welcome!

Tyrone
Tyrone

I think it might be time to start referring to Espinal as Hill’s former fiance.

Team Player
Team Player

Fiancée if female

Finance if skeptical

MasterChief
MasterChief

Do we even know that for sure?

Sudden
Sudden

Pro-tip: introduce your wife as “my ex-fiancee” when meeting new people. It’s technically true after all

TNCHIEFS
TNCHIEFS

Sometimes I tell the story of how I met my future ex-wife.

Icemanx44
Icemanx44

I am going to start doing this… after telling her before hand. Her ring is damaged and I don’t wear mine so it could make for some fun role play.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake

So all the noble defenders of the constitution have finally shown up. Where the hell have you people been?

Team Player
Team Player

Waiting for the trolls.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake

So anyone that disagrees with you is a troll? Got it snowflake.

Berserker
Berserker

I think he lives in Arizona, actually.

probablyamistake
probablyamistake

Oh, then snowbird.

MasterChief
MasterChief

I don’t think he said that at all.

Leaf
Leaf

I’ve defended this particular stance multiple times since the release of the audio. Just search my comment history of you don’t believe me.

MasterChief
MasterChief

Several of us have but it doesn’t matter. People want to make assumptions and jump to conclusions and they don’t care about facts or evidence.

BleedingRedAndGold

Indeed. But they each have a narrative they are sticking to, and people stuck in their narratives are not open to changing their minds when facts contrary to their (premature) conclusion come to light.

My opinion’s shifted around a bit on this, but that’s because I have stayed true to a principle: Form you opinion from the best facts available, and if new facts falsify that opinion, the opinion must change to fit the facts. Sticking to one’s morals is easy and comfortable, because you always feel that you have the moral high ground. Sticking to principles, however, is often difficult, because the place to defend your principles is when it’s difficult – otherwise it isn’t a principle at all.

MasterChief
MasterChief

Form you opinion from the best facts available, and if new facts falsify that opinion, the opinion must change to fit the facts.

Oh, you mean using… reason and critical thinking to try to find the truth, whatever that truth may be???